[✇] felt the joy and the fear


the once and future tropie


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[✇] felt the joy and the fear
Dear Winona Kirk,

Is that even really your name, did you take your husband’s name? Did you have a big wedding, did you wear a big white dress? (Do they still do that in the future?) Did you meet in class, in a coffee shop, did he ask you for drinks? Did he send you roses every day until you said yes? Did you have a one night stand that didn’t end when it should have with a cadet willing to do the right thing?

Why were you on board the USS Kelvin? Did you miss your husband when he was away? Did you want to see the stars? Was it the Starfleet healthcare program? Were you a doctor, once upon a time? Were you lonely while your husband worked, or did you have friends among the crew members?

Did you love your baby boy? Was your son always unruly, did he always thumb his nose, or were you once allies? Did he leave a note when he left for the stars? Did you hear when he was made captain, were you proud?

Was your life defined by absent men, did you always keep a candle lit? Were there old loves and family friends willing to help you pick up the pieces and fill in the blanks? Were there right-now men instead of happily-ever-after men? Did your heart heal, did you find new love, did your son resent you for it? Did he notice?

Did you have a happy childhood? Did you love school, did you love boys, did you have any hobbies? Did you have a whole career waiting for you? Were you close with your parents, your siblings, your neighborhood chums? Did they go to the wedding?

Did your son ever ask about his father? Did you tell him?

Who wouldn’t want to hear your stories?

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That is how I feel about this.

Oh, Tropie.


I pretended for a while that Dr Winona Cameron Kirk was a Starfleet doctor and thats why she was on the Kelvin, but, you know. She should get to be her own character.

According to Abrams, she was, in fact, a Starfleet officer.

But that should have...been in the movie.

I AGREE. Oh, awesome, more canon qualifications outside of the actual canon. HOW USEFUL, TELL ME ANOTHER, JABRAMS.


Winona, Amanda, McCoy's ex, possibly-disappeared Joanna: I am inevitably reminded of the nameless women of the Bible.

(Apparently Abrams said somewhere that Winona was in Starfleet. I don't know if that makes it better or worse.)

Ladies of Trek, Beloved Wives & Mothers.

Ugh. How hard would it have been to have her wearing an insignia? Or Pike to mention her? OR SOMETHING? My feelings on this are similar to, oh, that is pretty awesome, Dumbledore was gay? You only had thousands of text to mention it. At least Amanda was on the Cultural Board thingum, I suppose.

Haha, remember that time Dumbledore was gay and I kept trying to tell you and you repeatedly did not believe it? Oh, JKR. What the fuck.

So yes, this is why until the movie, I never had use for this particular cast of Trek. (And, obviously, still have the aforementioned issues with otherwise beloved movie.)

Edited at 2009-06-11 11:13 am (UTC)

Hahaha. In my defense, that was an extremely confusing revelation, and I am slow.

Yeah, I see that. And it feels similar to the point peri_peteia was making about "Stop it, the 60s weren't that awesome," in terms of how attempts to a progressive attitude don't always age well. Like, sure, you had the first interracial kiss, TOS, and that's neat, but uh, that is a fucking weird and unsettling scene, on several levels! Did it HAVE to be dub con? Ughh, bring on the DS9, pls.

I believe that there was argument about that, but that the network wanted the writers to make the kiss into Aliens Made Them Do It because the execs KNEW that advertisers in the Solid South wouldn't accept such a kiss being voluntary. And unfortunately they were right; hell, even the dub-con didn't help much with a lot of advertisers.

That said, even at the time, that was considered a stupid scene. Seriously, what heterosexual guy is going to have to be FORCED to kiss Uhura?

I'm a bit wary of laying the blame on the South like that; interracial marriage was still illegal for a solid half of TOS's run.

The scene was pretty gross on a number of levels, starting with the stupidity of the plot gimmick, and ending somewhere around playing into some weird consensual stereotypes.

(Deleted comment)
Off to Has-Served-Her-Plot-Purpose-Donia, I suppose. And it's like, I can see what they were going for, and yes, this is an origin story about Kirk and Spock, not their parents, and there are meant to be parallels for the boys, but Sarek is physically present in the story! Amanda is physically present, and obviously emotionally present in Spock's character. Even George is brought up more often as having had an effect on Jim than his STILL LIVING MOTHER, WHO RAISED HIM. I mean, honestly.

Part of me says FICATHONNNNNNNN; and the other part of me is just so sad about this.


Yeah. This was originally going to BE fic, because I wanted SOMETHING, but I kind of broke down when faced with so many questions. Now more than ever, bring on the DS9 and TNG (and Mad Men, for serious).


the ladies of ds9. OH LADIES.


IDK REALLY BUT I'M GOING TO ASSUME KAI WINN IS AN AWESOME LADY. Because that's what I assume about all Trek words I don't know (including pon farr).


LONG AGO when I was still wondering if I should dive into this ds9 thing, I read this AWESOME POST BY THE NOS about THE SISKO BEING THE BEST CAPTAIN and one of the items was "9. You should love Ben Sisko if only because Kai Winn hates him." and I thought OKAY WHAT?

And it's troo. THE SISKO VS. KAI WINN is one of the best dynamics evarrr and yes, the gender stuff gets a bit questionable at times, but KAI WINN IS SO GRATE. (she's a morally grey villainish type. and I love her a lot because she's a political/religious person and she's NOT A YOUNG PRETTY THING. She does not help ds9's quota of PRETTY YOUNG FEMALE things and I love her the most for that reason.)


WEEEELL, I just moved DS9 up to the top of my queue! THIS WEEKEND: me and Optimus have a date with THE GOOD STATION DEEP SPACE NINE.




ALSO, i have remembered now in my search for kai winn 'caps, Kira and Kai Winn pass the Bechdel test pretty much EVERY TIME THEY VERBALLY SPAR, which is often, and omg. <3 WIN. I love it when ladies are yelling at each other for reasons other than menfolk.

oh man, i would read a story for every. single. question you have here. jesus fuck, abrams.

She could have been so many ladies.

it's just such crap for someone who could've been an awesome bad ass new god, to instead be so narrowly defined by her child. way to be progressive, hollywood! i'm gonna go read TOS novels about amanda now, thanks. or watch ds9, as you mentioned above. \o/

and -- sorry to comment out of nowhere; i read this post after peri_peteia linked it and it really stayed with me. :D?

Yeeeeep. They could have done so many more things with the parents than they chose to, like, idek, show her again ever?! I'm I personally took a suggestion and have been watching some Xena: Warrior Princess on Netflix Instant Play!

Haha, no worries! And aw, thank you.

I love this post. She deserves to have her story told.

<3 Thank you! Both for this, and your fic (which sainfoin_fields recced to me not long after I posted this in a delightfully serendipitous moment).

She deserves so much more than what she got.

Oh, my gosh, I want to hear all of her stories. She deserves to have them told, same as every woman this movie forgot.

Thank you so, so much for this post.

Edited at 2009-06-12 01:46 pm (UTC)

Thank you for commenting. I loved so many things that the movie did, but then....

I do love how fandom seems to have embraced Gaila as Awesome Ladies VP, despite her .5 minutes of screentime. Sometimes I love you, fandom.

Gaila having this amazing life in fanfic MAKES ME GLEE. Cos the whole "girls who like sex are sluts, boys who like sex are studs" thing bothered me, and I kind of love that fandom isn't pulling the "enjoying sex is only acceptable if you're Jim Kirk" bullshit.

(or at least, if they are, it's not where I can see.)

Um, hi, I'm just a random passer-by who doesn't even know how she ended up in your LJ, but I wanted to let you know that I loved this. And I would read the answer to every single question. Yes.

Hee, no worries! And thank you, I'm glad this resonated.

...and now I have moved my Winona story out of the "later" folder into the "work on now" folder.

It bugs me that there's so much that was in the script--and even shot--that we'll never get to see until the DVD maybe, as literally the movie was so streamlined. But at the same time, to not introduce the actual plot until over 30 minutes in would have been BAD. So I still shake my head and wish for more. But at the same time, it bothers me that Winona wasn't there when Jim took command.

Did she die at Tarsus IV, if Tarsus IV even happened in this universe? Was she there, sitting behind Pike, and let on the cutting room floor? Was she still off-planet? What was up with the 2nd husband? At least she's actually in Starfleet. That's more than Diane Carey ever did for her, and she's just about the only tie-in author to ever show Jim and Sam's mum.

I love this post! You'll love DS9. The Ladies of DS9 don't take no shit from no one. Even Leeta.

Here via where no woman

Thanks to sainfoin_fields I am here...and your letter sparked a community also thanks to her, and your influence!


I want to hear her stories, and all the women of Trek's stories, too.
Looking forward to more inspired by this wonderful missive to Dr. Winona Cameron-Kirk.

i think this sums up my feelings on the ladies of the reboot better than anything else could.

A story by builtofsorrows linked to this, and... YES. A THOUSAND TIMES YES. I am extremely puzzled by fandom's apparent mass decision that poor Winona was an abuser, a tolerator of abuse, or so neglectful that she didn't notice at all. UM. Dude. Military widows from rural areas with children. STEP OFF.

I am sort of inspired... I might try to collect a recs list of Winona Kirk: Not a Bitch.

All of these things are things that are picking at the back of my brain even more since I saw the movie for the sixth time.

Add to that the knowledge that AOS Jim was born 2.5 months earlier than TOS Jim. What did that do to her? How did that make her feel? Having had a preemie myself, I'm working over the fic in my brain.

Thank you for this.

I got here by a convoluted route, but good questions.

Great post. Mind if I link to it in a few places?

Thanks! Not at all, go for it.

Not gonna lie, I teared up.

Thank you so much for this! It should be required reading for Star Trek XI fandom. ;_;

I literally stumbled on this and I don't remember why or how but this is awesome. It also makes me feel like... I don't know. I supposed I didn't notice that their stories weren't really told at all. Not even Uhura's, and there were plenty of instances where it could have been alluded to. I was too busy wishing Spock and Kirk would make out to notice much else.

Thanks for opening my eyes and kind of showing me that while I'd like to catch onto these things, sometimes I don't even though I rant about it often.

Edited at 2010-01-14 08:59 pm (UTC)

I might have found this late, but I'd like to thank you for writing this. I didn't even realize I needed this until I read it: there are so many women in Trek whose story has not been told, and Winona is a prime example.

And yes, it is one of the reasons why I love DS9 so much, the women there are amazing.

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